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Thread: 9MM Not "Combat Effective"?

  1. #31
    Member mountainraider's Avatar
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    You can suppressed it....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Recon1342 View Post
    For self-defense, the ideal weapon would fire a projectile the size of a baseball at 2,500 FPS, have a capacity of 50 rounds, recoil like a .22lr, be able to shoot moa at 300+ yards, and fit in your back pocket.

    Alas, the laws of physics must be obeyed...
    That would be, "ball" ammo, right?

  3. #33
    Senior Member TRX's Avatar
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    NATO 9x19 is loaded quite a bit hotter than SAAMI spec. It would be "+P" in old terminology, but it's still FMJ, and doesn't have anything like the antipersonnel performance of modern "defensive" 9mm.

    9mm Ultra Death Raptors or whatever, may well be loaded to pressures that would damage many older firearms. The manufacturers accept the risk and ship it to meet customer demand.

    The only direct comparisons between calibers are SAAMI-to-SAAMI or milspec-to-milspec; anything else, you can make the results come out any way you want. Most pistol rounds are limited by "agreed maximum pressure", not how much powder they will hold.

    A .45 Super looks just like a .45 ACP; the only difference is the pressure. Same for the .45 SMC. But once you go past the standard pressure, it's not a ".45 ACP" any more, even if it looks like one. Same for the super-duper 9mms, or the guys who discover they can handload .40 S&W to 10mm ballistics.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Hammer1270's Avatar
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    Ummmmmmmmmm,,,,, Ummmmmm,,,, Glock 17
    Nonsensical Gibberish Talkin Clown,,, Das Me,,,, hehehehe.....

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    Senior Member LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer1270 View Post
    Ummmmmmmmmm,,,,, Ummmmmm,,,, Glock 17

    I'll see your Glock 17 and raise you a Glock G40. It is only a silly millimeter larger.
    Second Amendment: The difference between politicians and rulers.

  6. #36
    Senior Member OlympicViking's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with a 9x19 for personal defense. It's not like it's a .380 or anything!
    You can double the stopping power of any caliber with a double tap

  7. #37
    Senior Member chuck's Avatar
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    Combat effective? I doubt that there has been many combat engagements where the issued 9mm handgun was used offensively or defensively. I always looked at my handgun as my last means to avoid capture. When I served we were issued a .38 or a 1911 denpending on your rank and/or duty assignment.
    U.S. Army (Ret) 1953-1977 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’
    — Patrick Henry

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    Senior Member Gman's Avatar
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    Usually it seems, that this topic will be discussed at length with some folks getting sideways because the terminology has not been quantified first.

    For my purposes of the term “combat”, as implied here for military purposes where a rifle is the main weapon, and the sidearm is not even carried by the main battle fighters, it’s a moot point.

    My opinion on SD applications for the general public uses, are that to much time and hot air are expended on the topic of hardware, and not enough emphasis and conversation are given to street proven tactics.

    A small calibered being emptied in to the guts of an attacker fired from the pocket immediately upon seeing the need, IMO, far outweigh the caliber and power factor of a larger gun/caliber combo that has to be more slowly or clumsily presented.

    The caliber debate is fun for banter and intellectual exercise, but pretty much a non issue for practical purposes with the exception of a few possibilities.
    " But wisdom is shown to be right by what results from it"
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    Curmudgeon OldVet's Avatar
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    Gman, we're discussing the 9mm here, not the 90mm you carry.
    Official Forum Curmudgeon I have not yet begun to defile myself.
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    Senior Member Tree Potato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Usually it seems, that this topic will be discussed at length with some folks getting sideways because the terminology has not been quantified first.

    For my purposes of the term “combat”, as implied here for military purposes where a rifle is the main weapon, and the sidearm is not even carried by the main battle fighters, it’s a moot point.
    There are thousands of military personnel carrying the M9 right this moment as their primary weapon, both in combat zones and as security for national defense (for flight lines, command centers, etc).

    The combat effectiveness of a sidearm is important in ways that are different than the typical infantry rifle; it’s not a moot point as it does affect living or dying in combat. Typically, a sidearm isn’t used as primary offensive weapon, but the defensive use of sidearms in some cases is still combat. See post 9 above. When faced with an enemy combatant and the fecal matter hits the swirling blades, if a sidearm is all we have at the moment it better be combat effective.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

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    Senior Member SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree Potato View Post
    There are thousands of military personnel carrying the M9 right this moment as their primary weapon, both in combat zones and as security for national defense (for flight lines, command centers, etc).

    The combat effectiveness of a sidearm is important in ways that are different than the typical infantry rifle; it’s not a moot point as it does affect living or dying in combat. Typically, a sidearm isn’t used as primary offensive weapon, but the defensive use of sidearms in some cases is still combat. See post 9 above. When faced with an enemy combatant and the fecal matter hits the swirling blades, if a sidearm is all we have at the moment it better be combat effective.
    if a sidearm is all we have at the moment it better be combat effective Sure, if the man knows how to use it.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Tree Potato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SatCong View Post
    if a sidearm is all we have at the moment it better be combat effective Sure, if the man knows how to use it.
    Yes, that’s a major pet peeve between me and the budgeteers. Our training ammo supply is under resourced and we don’t spend enough dry fire time working on skills. As an Air Force air advisor in a combat zone I was able to regularly beg enough ammo from the Army to shoot 500-1000 rounds of 9mm monthly, per person on my team. Most of my team (including me) improved our skills over a year due to the frequency of shooting; we should have arrived with that level of skill. We knew 9mm ball was unreliable at best against soft armor and useless against plates, so we spent a lot of time on accuracy and head shot drills.

    I can’t speak for the skill level of the KIA buddy I mentioned as I wasn’t deployed with him when he and his team were attacked. In his case drawing against an attacker who barged into a room firing an AK... that would be a tough one for even the most skilled to respond to, and he got lead on target wounding the guy and repelling him from hitting anyone else.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  13. #43
    Senior Member Gman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree Potato View Post
    There are thousands of military personnel carrying the M9 right this moment as their primary weapon, both in combat zones and as security for national defense (for flight lines, command centers, etc).

    The combat effectiveness of a sidearm is important in ways that are different than the typical infantry rifle; it’s not a moot point as it does affect living or dying in combat. Typically, a sidearm isn’t used as primary offensive weapon, but the defensive use of sidearms in some cases is still combat. See post 9 above. When faced with an enemy combatant and the fecal matter hits the swirling blades, if a sidearm is all we have at the moment it better be combat effective.
    Yeah, I get that. But I stand by my original point, from my perspective and experience.

    Regular infantry, straight legs, grunts, etc....are the primary war fighters and are not issued both sidearm and rifle.
    Last edited by Gman; December 9th, 2017 at 10:27 AM.
    " But wisdom is shown to be right by what results from it"
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    Senior Member SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Yeah, I get that. But I stand by my original point, from my perspective and experience.

    Regular infantry, straight legs, grunts, etc....are the primary war fighters and are not issued both sidearm and rifle.
    It was the same way in Nam.

  15. #45
    Senior Member chuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Yeah, I get that. But I stand by my original point, from my perspective and experience.

    Regular infantry, straight legs, grunts, etc....are the primary war fighters and are not issued both sidearm and rifle.
    ^^^^^^^^^
    You are correct but during my 24 years in the Army all commissioned officers and senior non-commissioned officers were also issued a side arm. In a combat zone they were also issued a rifle.
    U.S. Army (Ret) 1953-1977 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’
    — Patrick Henry

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