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Thread: 12 1/2 yrs for Pepper Spray?

  1. #16
    Senior Member jmf552's Avatar
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    @RightsEroding: In the link you provided, the defendant had "MMA training." There is no belt ranking system (only trophy belts) in MMA. So your idea of "If one is to study martial arts, do it at a place that does not care about or award belts." does not seem to apply. Any martial arts training would seem to be a problem. But also, I think these are rare occasions. You are much more at risk of legal action with a weapon, especially a knife or a gun.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    Senior Member RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
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    @RightsEroding: In the link you provided, the defendant had "MMA training." There is no belt ranking system (only trophy belts) in MMA. So your idea of "If one is to study martial arts, do it at a place that does not care about or award belts." does not seem to apply. Any martial arts training would seem to be a problem. But also, I think these are rare occasions. You are much more at risk of legal action with a weapon, especially a knife or a gun.
    You're splitting hairs.

    My only point is, if a over zealous prosecutor discovers one is trained in martial arts, that person is at far greater liability. A black belt, even to the uninitiated, carries weight of a person who has excelled in their art. If you noticed in the link I provided, the prosecutor considered this person a deadly weapon, and indeed a well trained person can reach such a level compared to the average person who is untrained.

    MMA is meaningless as far as training or because they may be paid to compete. I competed for many yrs in MA, not MMA, but still competed in full contact as a black belt.
    I am of the mindset to run from a fight if possible because of my training and the repercussions I KNOW, would be upon me from the legal system IF I injured someone.

    It has happened in other cases, you may do your own research.
    A trained martial artist can be just as deadly as a pro boxer, who by the way would be charged with assault with a deadly weapon. This has happened as well. It is a matter of degree, one which a prosecutor would use if it bolstered their case.

    The only urban legend out there is when some claim a black belt must register as a deadly weapon; which most know is poppycock.

    As far as your understanding of MMA belt ranking systems, you are off base. Nearly all MMA fighters have a background in Gracie or Machado systems which ARE belt progression ranked. Many are belt ranked kick boxers, karate practicioners, judo. Sure, there are some who came from a wrestling background, though the majority of MMA fighters have come from belt ranked systems.

    This S has nothing to do with affirmative defense or who instigated the physical altercation.

    A black belt or ANYONE with proven skills will be scrutinized by a prosecutor far more than sad sack Charlie.

    BTW, after 26 yrs in belt progression martial arts, I decided to train in jujitsu where we do not award belts. I made this decision for all the reasons I mentioned.

    Prosecutors will ask "why did you use hollow points"
    The correct answer is "because the box of ammo said self defense"...NOT, " because these bullets cause more damage"

    If I ever have to defend myself in a hand to hand encounter, I can say truthfully if asked about my training, " I stopped formal training years ago" probably won't help if one decides to dig deeper into my background.
    "A covenant not to defend myself from force, by force, is always void"...Thomas Hobbes

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    Senior Member jmf552's Avatar
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    @RightsEroding: 'Prosecutors will ask "why did you use hollow points?" The correct answer is "because the box of ammo said self defense"...NOT, " because these bullets cause more damage"'

    I've heard an answer I like better: "Because that is what our local police department uses." That opens up a whole can of worms for the prosecutor and the cops.


    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    Senior Member Texas Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceMcCall View Post
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    Two winters ago, in a large northeastern city (NH), an individual was shoved against a wall and choked.
    Anyone close enough to choke me is close enough for me to seriously rearrange their priorities w/o my use of pepper spray or any other device.

  5. #20
    Senior Member oneshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
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    I stay out of the communist controlled northeast.

    The people get the laws they tolerate.

    In KY, we would not tolerate laws like that.


    Sent from my LG-K425 using Tapatalk

    ^^In this camp here^^^^^^^^^

    Morons who tolerate the idea and notion that some scumbag tries to rob/harm threaten you with bodily harm and murder and then the state still allows for you to be held liable for legally defending yourself, gets what they deserve.

    Michigans Self defense law.

    MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &MCL 777.21cThe Self-Defense ActEffective October 1, 2006Public Acts 309 – 314 of 2006 comprise the“Self-Defense Act.” The Act affects criminaland civil liability for those who use force todefend themselves or others. Prior to thisAct, the law of self-defense was gleanedprimarily from the common law (judge-madelaw).General Provisions of the ActA person may use deadly force with no dutyto retreat if (PA 309):1. They are not engaged in a crime2. They are in a place they have alegal right to be3. They honestly and reasonablybelieve deadly force is necessary4. The deadly force is used to preventimminent death, great bodily harm,or sexual assault of the person oranotherA person may use force other than deadlyforce if (PA 309):1. They are not engaged in a crime2. They are in a place they have alegal right to be3. They honestly and reasonablybelieve force is necessary4. The force is used to preventimminent unlawful force against theperson or another.
    Civil LiabilityA person who uses force in accordance withthe Act is immune from civil liability fordamages caused by the use of such force(PA 314). Additionally, courts must awardattorney fees and costs to an individual whohas been sued for using force and the courtfinds that the force was in accordance withthe Act (PA 312).Criminal LiabilityUnder the Act (PA 310), no crime has beencommitted when a person uses force asauthorized. If a prosecutor believes that theforce is not justified, he or she must provideevidence that the force used was not inaccordance with the Act. Such evidencemust be presented at the time of warrantissuance, preliminary examination, and trial.Effect on Law EnforcementThe overall effect of the Act on policepractice is minimal. Officers should stillprocess suspected crime scenes as in thepast. However, because of the dutyimposed upon prosecutors by PA 310,officers should immediately consult with theirprosecutor when investigating a case whereself-defense has been claimed by thesuspect or where the circumstances indicatethat such a defense might be used at trial.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    Don't ever think that the reason I'm peaceful is because I don't know how to be violent

  6. #21
    Senior Member oneshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
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    Do you have a reference for that? I got my third degree black belt in Karate' decades ago, I have read a lot and talked to a lot of knowledgeable people on this topic. My understanding is that at least in the US, this is more urban legend than anything else.

    If a person has a legitimate case for self defense, that is if you are in imminent threat of grave bodily harm and you use only reasonable force necessary, it does not matter what training you have. If, on the other hand, the affirmative defense of self-defense is weak, and/or there is a disparity of force issue in the case for self-defense, any contributing factor can be called argued by a prosecutor: any martial arts training, belts or not, size, strength, age, athleticism, military background, etc. But the fact of having a black belt per se is not the main issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by notavictim View Post
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    NH has had a stand your ground law since 2011. Do you have a link to this? I just can't see charges being brought against someone using a less than deadly means to defend themselves while under attack.

    This is something I would expect to see in Marxachussetts.
    ^^I'm in this camp.^^^^^^

    A name, link or something describing this incident, should be available. I googled, and nothing popped up. ????? Seems ODD.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    Don't ever think that the reason I'm peaceful is because I don't know how to be violent

  7. #22
    Senior Member notavictim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
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    ^^I'm in this camp.^^^^^^

    A name, link or something describing this incident, should be available. I googled, and nothing popped up. ????? Seems ODD.
    So did I. I asked a PD friend in town if you could get arrested for using pepper spray in self defense and told him the story. He said, as far as he knew, if the person was being attacked, and successfully used pepper spray to end the attack, he would get a handshake, not handcuffs. He then said, hell, if the guy used his gun he would still get a handshake.
    “What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
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    Unfortunately, too many define the common good as a campfire, a guitar, and a rousing round of Kumbaya.
    I thought it was a drum circle....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
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    @RightsEroding: 'Prosecutors will ask "why did you use hollow points?" The correct answer is "because the box of ammo said self defense"...NOT, " because these bullets cause more damage"'

    I've heard an answer I like better: "Because that is what our local police department uses." That opens up a whole can of worms for the prosecutor and the cops.


    Prosecutors aren't going to Ask why you used hollow point bullets, they're going to State that you choose to use them because they are "more deadly" and "you wanted to kill some one"....Now your defense attorney on the other hand....

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    Senior Member GRCarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorflyr View Post
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    Prosecutors aren't going to Ask why you used hollow point bullets, they're going to State that you choose to use them because they are "more deadly" and "you wanted to kill some one"....Now your defense attorney on the other hand....
    I can picture the arresting officer having to answer what ammo they use. Then, since the prosecutor brought it up, having the police chief and the city attorney on the stand explaining why they "wanted to kill some one" in the words of the prosecutor. If the prosecutor is an assistant DA, call in the head honcho to ask how many police have been prosecuted for using "more deadly" ammo. I would expect that there would be some heated words behind closed doors.
    TANSTAAFL - "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
    OldVet, 30 March 2018: "But being the agreeable sort, I agree."

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    Senior Member hackberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
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    Unfortunately, too many define the common good as a campfire, a guitar, and a rousing round of Kumbaya.
    And girls...don't forget the girls around the campfire.

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    Curmudgeon OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackberry View Post
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    And girls...don't forget the girls around the campfire.
    If you can tell which ones they are.
    Official Forum Curmudgeon Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself.
    Tact: The skill of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.

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    Senior Member hackberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
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    If you can tell which ones they are.
    The ones without the bulges in their pants...

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    Lifelong Redleg MAJOkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
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    If you can tell which ones they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by hackberry View Post
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    The ones without the bulges in their pants...
    Okay, I don't care which side of the argument you're on....that's funny.

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