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Thread: They roam among us...and they vote!

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Badger View Post
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    ^^ In some ways you are both right, at the same time, and through diametrically oppositional statements.

    I want to like both posters' comments, all the while realizing that 'divided we fall' might have a bearing.

    I am ashamed to say that my partner was lured into signing that dingbat's petition (hangs head), and says things like "I'd vote for a tree slug (insert ridiculous invertebrate creature/object) over the T-word".

    I'm not even allowed, now, to voice a 'politically inflammatory' (IOW anything) comment. So I talk about banalities.

    (Sigh)
    In all honesty, BMcPhe44 and I aren't that far apart on our views. We're both 2A supporters, we both are passionate about our views, we just have different ideas on how to keep those rights long term. I will attempt to clear up some misunderstandings with him, but I agree with him that Republicans hold the cards (currently) on where our rights go. I feel that I hold Republicans and Democrats equally responsible when they impose on our 2A rights, while I feel he holds voters and Democrats more responsible, even when Republicans help pass infringements.

    I hold no ill will towards BMcPhe44. We may have differing views on the 2A, and our discussions may get chippy at times, but (and I can't speak for him) If he ever needed anything, I wouldn't hesitate to help in any way that I could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    Your statement is not credible because the statement you made was not accurate. You failed to acknowledge that Obama and the Democrats proposed and passed more laws, EAs and EOS than the Trump and the Republicans have, and that the only reason that some did not pass and become law is because of the actions of Republicans. You failed to mention that the laws proposed in Obama's Democratic Congress were far more egregious than anything Trump did until the Republicans added favorable additions to the bills. This has been true throughout recent history, not just under the Trump administration, but other Republican administrations as well. To me you are pushing an agenda of discrediting Trump without acknowledging that the goals of the Democrats are much worse. You also seem to excuse Obama's throwaway laws while condemning Trump for the same thing. A gateway for Trump is a gateway for Obama, they both cave to the media, politicians and people. You only seem to tell the side of the story that confirms your agenda and leaves out the part that supports my agenda, of never electing another gun-grabbing Democrat..
    I'm not discrediting Trump. I like trump, I like the vast majority of what he's done, but that doesn't mean that I won't criticize him when he does something that I think infringes on my 2A rights.

    Bolded: No I already answered that. From post #50 in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    I'm against "throwaways" for political anything, be it Obama or Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    There is no deflection I address your statement of fact as you posted it. You can recant all you want but you know and I know that you consistently post this notion that Trump is worse on the 2nd than Obama (and he ran on the Republican ticket), in this thread as well as several others. Whether or not you want to admit it, your effort seems to me to indicate that you are trying to insinuate that abandoning voting for Trump in the general election is better than supporting him, as far as the 2nd Amendment is concerned. If that is not your goal you should post your statement of fact with the qualifiers that I added to it and I would agree with you. Your primary goal seems to me to be to get rid of Trump, while mine is to get rid of Democrats. I agree that there are better Republican politicians than Trump on the 2nd but their flaws are major. They can't win the election over the Democrat and they can't win the primary over Trump. Gun control is only a part of getting Trump in, if he abandoned the right to life movement or the immigration issue he would lose far more voters than he did by banning bumpstocks, and that is because even among the gun community bumpstocks are largely considered a throwaway to gain support among Independents. Only those of us who realize any capitulation to the gun-grabbers is not the way to go will even consider electing a Democrat over Trump. I am not in that camp.
    Bolded; NO. I've consistently said that I will not vote for a Democrat. If I lived in a swing state, I would have voted for Trump.

    Bolded blue. Same answer. I like Trump, I'm just not going to hold my tongue when it comes to what I consider mistakes being made in regards to the 2A.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    So do you really believe that the majority of people would be for rolling back gun legislation to pre 1933? That is what you seem to be saying when you question these polls. I agree that a small majority of people might support the 2nd Amendment but they don't support the un-infringed version that most here support, and the majority certainly don't support the unlimited version that many here push. I think that this is easily proven by studying nothing other than voting patterns.
    I'm saying most polls are bull I don't know anyone who was polled, ever, and I'd bet a small amount that you don't know any either. It's possible that you know a few unicorns, but I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    So you have not mentioned not voting for Trump in other threads? I seem to recall that you have more than once, and you have defended that stance even when made by others.
    I didn't vote for Trump, and I have explained why many times on this site. But I understand that not everyone has the same circumstances when voting that I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    As far as Republicans dropping the ball, they always seem to do that when faced with unrelenting pressure placed on them by the MSM, Democrats and the people, when faced with the publicity of these mass shootings. I agree that is a bad response but I understand that it will be far worse under any Democrat Administration with a supermajority. It has been in the past and it will continue to be in the future.
    I agree. That was the point I was making in the second paragraph in my original post you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    I leave you with this, perhaps an opinion but one I can back up with some historical facts. If 30 million voters (who would normally vote Republican) were encouraged not to vote, vote a throwaway or vote for a Democrat, by your assessment that we were better off with Obama than now, the 2nd Amendment would be repealed, guns confiscated and the people's freedoms severely limited.
    Yet we had Obama wining the popular vote by +- 10 million votes on 08, and +- 5 million in 12, and nothing near what you say has happened. Most people I hear say they might sit out voting, or vote 3rd party (ex.) still say they will vote for other offices.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    If 30 million people we encouraged to vote (who would normally vote Democrat) for keeping Democrats out of power by my assessment that we are better off with any Republican than any Democrat, we would stop all of the attacks on the 2nd Amendment, more people would be armed and the Country would be safer.
    IMO, that's going to take a much larger effort than blaming the people, and pointing potential voters towards the Republican platform. Republicans are going to have to do what the Dems do and get their hands dirty, quit letting the Dems monopolize the MSM, and actively educate potential voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    The overwhelming sentiment for Republicans would set the Democrats and the media back to pre-1933. That is not going to happen of course but it portends what would happen if the voters would abandon the Democratic party in mass. It is always the people's fault.
    The only way for that to happen IMO is for the Republicans to play the game better than they are. The people aren't always at fault. They tend to only have the choices the party provides, and sometimes those are RHINO's known ahead of time, or after they lie to get into office. The Republican party could certainly do a better job of calling out the rats. It's also possible that they want a certain amount of rats elected.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    I'm not discrediting Trump. I like trump, I like the vast majority of what he's done, but that doesn't mean that I won't criticize him when he does something that I think infringes on my 2A rights.
    You like Trump??? I have not mentioned not criticizing him. I have sent emails to the Whitehouse criticizing him for things he said and trying to convince him that it does not matter how much he caters to the looney lefties, they will never vote for him. I

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Bolded: No I already answered that. From post #50 in this thread





    Bolded; NO. I've consistently said that I will not vote for a Democrat. If I lived in a swing state, I would have voted for Trump.

    Bolded blue. Same answer. I like Trump, I'm just not going to hold my tongue when it comes to what I consider mistakes being made in regards to the 2A.
    You like Trump??? Did I ever ask you to "hold your tongue? I am just pointing out that if you really like Trump better than his opponent it is a mistake to vote for his opponent directly or indirectly by not voting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    I'm saying most polls are bull I don't know anyone who was polled, ever, and I'd bet a small amount that you don't know any either. It's possible that you know a few unicorns, but I doubt it.
    I have been polled by Pew exactly twice in my lifetime and numerous times in mostly local, some State and a few National elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    I didn't vote for Trump, and I have explained why many times on this site. But I understand that not everyone has the same circumstances when voting that I do.
    You like Trump but you didn't vote him even before he did the bumpstock thing or hinted at more gun control???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    I agree. That was the point I was making in the second paragraph in my original post you quoted.
    You agree but yet you refused to vote for Trump and actually helped out the 63M who voted for HRC???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Yet we had Obama wining the popular vote by +- 10 million votes on 08, and +- 5 million in 12, and nothing near what you say has happened. Most people I hear say they might sit out voting, or vote 3rd party (ex.) still say they will vote for other offices.
    My point was if 30M voters left the Republicans and gave the Democrats a supermajority in both Houses and the Presidency with 93M votes affirming their belief in Democrats we would have confiscation. It is always the people's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    IMO, that's going to take a much larger effort than blaming the people, and pointing potential voters towards the Republican platform. Republicans are going to have to do what the Dems do and get their hands dirty, quit letting the Dems monopolize the MSM, and actively educate potential voters.
    Give the Republicans those 93M voters and we would have no effort to confiscate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    The only way for that to happen IMO is for the Republicans to play the game better than they are. The people aren't always at fault. They tend to only have the choices the party provides, and sometimes those are RHINO's known ahead of time, or after they lie to get into office. The Republican party could certainly do a better job of calling out the rats. It's also possible that they want a certain amount of rats elected.
    If enough people wanted a 3rd Party there would be one. Political parties do what they do, but in the end it is always the people who vote for and get the government they deserve
    “Civil Wars happen when the victimized are armed. Genocide happens when they are not.”
    ― A.E. Samaan

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    You like Trump???
    Yes!!! I'd be comfortable saying I've expressed my like for Trump no less than 50 times on this site. You either haven't seen it, or have seen it and just don't care IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    I have not mentioned not criticizing him. I have sent emails to the Whitehouse criticizing him for things he said and trying to convince him that it does not matter how much he caters to the looney lefties, they will never vote for him. I
    IMO, the difference between you and I is, I have no problem criticizing Trump on a pro 2A forum, and you do everything you can to avoid criticizing him. You even go so far as to suggest/insinuate that those that criticize him lack knowledge, have TDS, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    You like Trump???
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    Did I ever ask you to "hold your tongue? I am just pointing out that if you really like Trump better than his opponent it is a mistake to vote for his opponent directly or indirectly by not voting.
    That's you opinion, even though you sated it as a fact. Trump won, unless I live in some bizarro world, and in the real one Hillary won.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    I have been polled by Pew exactly twice in my lifetime and numerous times in mostly local, some State and a few National elections.
    Fair enough, I'm referring to the numerous polls that claim most of america is for stronger gun control laws, background checks, etc. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of the country has ever been "polled" about gun control laws, background checks, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    You like Trump but you didn't vote him even before he did the bumpstock thing or hinted at more gun control???
    How many times do I have to explain why I voted The way I did, and the circumstances under which I did it? That's a rhetorical question. I feel I've explain it enough times that it is pointless to try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    You agree but yet you refused to vote for Trump and actually helped out the 63M who voted for HRC???
    Please explain how I helped those that voted for HRC? Does the electoral college still exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    My point was if 30M voters left the Republicans and gave the Democrats a supermajority in both Houses and the Presidency with 93M votes affirming their belief in Democrats we would have confiscation. It is always the people's fault.
    If 30M people left the Republican party it would be because the Republican party changed and became something that those voting Republicans could no longer tolerate. that would be a party problem, not a people problem IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    Give the Republicans those 93M voters and we would have no effort to confiscate.
    Maybe not to confiscate, but we'd still still have our 2A rights infringed IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    If enough people wanted a 3rd Party there would be one.
    Not true IMO. Mob Mentality is strong. We have conditioned Democrats and conditioned Republicans spewing the "a vote for *fill in the blank* is a vote for *fill in the blank*. Humans for the most part are tribal IMO. It's hard to break that cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    Political parties do what they do, but in the end it is always the people who vote for and get the government they deserve
    The people always get what the parties offer them. If political power wasn't tied to money, we might see some better options.
    Last edited by Nakyak; September 2nd, 2019 at 07:48 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Yes!!! I'd be comfortable saying I've expressed my like for Trump no less than 50 times on this site. You either haven't seen it, or have seen it and just don't care IMO.
    You like Trump but refuse to vote for him thereby increasing the odds that HRC wins the popular vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    IMO, the difference between you and I is, I have no problem criticizing Trump on a pro 2A forum, and you do everything you can to avoid criticizing him. You even go so far as to suggest/insinuate that those that criticize him lack knowledge, have TDS, etc.
    I don't believe I have even asked you not to criticize Trump and if I did it was only in reference to what you seemed to imply with the post. Does it seem to me to be a frivolous action to not vote for somebody you like to vote for somebody who can't win or not vote at all, both of which indirectly benefit the very person, which you have agreed is even worse for the 2nd Amendment? Yes it does and I don't understand why you would do it, but is definitely none of my business unless you post it on a public forum. All of that from my point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    See above
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    That's you opinion, even though you sated it as a fact. Trump won, unless I live in some bizarro world, and in the real one Hillary won.
    That is actually a fact. If enough people do as you say you did, like Trump but vote for someone else, HRC is going to win the election. I made no indication that if only you did it that HRC would win. My point, if you describe your action in a public setting and you convince 5 people to do likewise and they each convince 5 more to do the same and so on, you can see where that is going. Yes it is a bizarro world to follow the course of action you described. In my opinion of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Fair enough, I'm referring to the numerous polls that claim most of america is for stronger gun control laws, background checks, etc. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of the country has ever been "polled" about gun control laws, background checks, etc.
    I know for a fact that 63M or so vote for the party that is pro-confiscation. That was what the Pew polls were about and the only reason I participated. But if you think that the majority of the American voters feel as you or even I, do about the RTKAB arms, I think there is ample proof to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    How many times do I have to explain why I voted The way I did, and the circumstances under which I did it? That's a rhetorical question. I feel I've explain it enough times that it is pointless to try again.
    I accept your explanation, but that does not keep me from thinking it the wrong thing to do in regard to the 2nd Amendment. When this course of action is posted I feel I should comment on it. Of course I hope no one else follows your lead and state the reasons why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Please explain how I helped those that voted for HRC? Does the electoral college still exist?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    If 30M people left the Republican party it would be because the Republican party changed and became something that those voting Republicans could no longer tolerate. that would be a party problem, not a people problem IMO.
    Not if those 30M voters thought they were helping the 2nd Amendment by following your course of actions. Of course this would never happen but we are discussing the hypothetical of what would be the result if it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Maybe not to confiscate, but we'd still still have our 2A rights infringed IMO.
    So we are going to have infringement with either party but it still seems to me we should keep the worst of the only two possible winners---out of office. It just seems rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    Not true IMO. Mob Mentality is strong. We have conditioned Democrats and conditioned Republicans spewing the "a vote for *fill in the blank* is a vote for *fill in the blank*. Humans for the most part are tribal IMO. It's hard to break that cycle.
    So now you don't believe it is the people's fault but you believe they are tribal with a mob mentality. If the people actually knew what they are voting for, if they recognized the dangers posed by the leftists in the Democrat party, perhaps they would not be so easily pushed into tribes or mobs. Fact is they don't know what they are voting for they only know who promises them the most bang for their vote. At least well over half the population in my opinion and I believe that the Country is at their mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakyak View Post
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    The people always get what the parties offer them. If political power wasn't tied to money, we might see some better options.
    No the parties only offer what their base voters want from them----except-----when they believe they can pull enough of the disenchanted by throwing them a bone to win an election.
    “Civil Wars happen when the victimized are armed. Genocide happens when they are not.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    You like Trump but refuse to vote for him thereby increasing the odds that HRC wins the popular vote.
    I don't care who wins the popular vote. I care who wins through the electoral college.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    I don't believe I have even asked you not to criticize Trump and if I did it was only in reference to what you seemed to imply with the post. Does it seem to me to be a frivolous action to not vote for somebody you like to vote for somebody who can't win or not vote at all, both of which indirectly benefit the very person, which you have agreed is even worse for the 2nd Amendment? Yes it does and I don't understand why you would do it, but is definitely none of my business unless you post it on a public forum. All of that from my point of view.
    I voted based on knowing, with a pretty strong past history of my state, who my states electoral votes would go to. It's definitely a chess move as opposed to a checkers move, which is why I've stated many times that I wouldn't suggest the move if one lives in a swing state, or a potential swing state.

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    That is actually a fact. If enough people do as you say you did, like Trump but vote for someone else, HRC is going to win the election. I made no indication that if only you did it that HRC would win. My point, if you describe your action in a public setting and you convince 5 people to do likewise and they each convince 5 more to do the same and so on, you can see where that is going. Yes it is a bizarro world to follow the course of action you described. In my opinion of course.
    Again, it depends on which state you live in. Let's take California, in the last election, as an example (according to politico). The numbers vary from different sources, but the numbers in terms of percentages are still roughly the same.

    There were roughly 9.1 million votes

    Almost 5.6 million votes for Hillary
    A little over 3 million for Trump
    288,000 or so for Gay Johnson
    And almost another 200,000 for Stein, and G. La Riva

    Now my maths have never been that good, but had all of the voters who voted for Johnson, Stein, and G. La Riva voted for Trump instead, He would have still garnered a grand total of ZERO electoral votes from California, and still lost by around 2 Million votes. I have a hard time seeing how I could tell those that voted for Johnson, Stein, or G La Riva that they helped Hillary win California. YMMV.

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    I know for a fact that 63M or so vote for the party that is pro-confiscation.
    Maybe. Or maybe they voted for pro choice, etc. I don't know anyone that can speak for how everyone in a party voted, including me.

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    That was what the Pew polls were about and the only reason I participated.
    I think I've thoroughly expressed my feeling on what I think about "polls". If you believe them, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    But if you think that the majority of the American voters feel as you or even I, do about the RTKAB arms, I think there is ample proof to the contrary.
    I don't know how you could possibly say that, unless you believe that everyone in America has been given the opportunity to express how they feel, or again you believe in "polls".

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    I accept your explanation, but that does not keep me from thinking it the wrong thing to do in regard to the 2nd Amendment. When this course of action is posted I feel I should comment on it. Of course I hope no one else follows your lead and state the reasons why.
    People do what they do. disagreements happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMcPhe44 View Post
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    Not if those 30M voters thought they were helping the 2nd Amendment by following your course of actions. Of course this would never happen but we are discussing the hypothetical of what would be the result if it did.

    So we are going to have infringement with either party but it still seems to me we should keep the worst of the only two possible winners---out of office. It just seems rational.

    So now you don't believe it is the people's fault but you believe they are tribal with a mob mentality. If the people actually knew what they are voting for, if they recognized the dangers posed by the leftists in the Democrat party, perhaps they would not be so easily pushed into tribes or mobs. Fact is they don't know what they are voting for they only know who promises them the most bang for their vote. At least well over half the population in my opinion and I believe that the Country is at their mercy.
    It's only at their mercy if the Republican/opposing elected officials lay down and let it happen IMO.
    Last edited by Nakyak; September 3rd, 2019 at 05:34 PM.

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