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Thread: Palm Beach Police Chief Calls for Change in Open Carry Law

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    The problem is the Florida Supreme Court has ruled that disallowing open carry does not violate the rights under the 2nd Amendment.

    Norman v. State, 215 So. 3d 18 (Fla. 2017)
    3/2/2017 - FSC-OPINION:
    "We hold that section 790.053 does not unconstitutionally infringe on the Second Amendment right to bear arms, as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald, or the Florida Constitution's freestanding right to bear arms subject to the Legislature's authority to regulate the use and manner of doing so. Because section 790.053 regulates only one manner of bearing arms and does not impair the exercise of the fundamental right to bear arms, we approve the Fourth District's well-reasoned decision in Norman upholding the constitutionality of section 790.053 under intermediate scrutiny. It is so ordered."
    This needs to go to the Federal Supreme Court as the Second Amendment is being violated regardless of what the Florida Supreme Court says.
    "We the people, are the rightful masters of both the Congress, and the Courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who have perverted it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
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    This needs to go to the Federal Supreme Court as the Second Amendment is being violated regardless of what the Florida Supreme Court says.
    Federal Supreme Court? You mean the Supreme Court of the United States of America

    There is presently just one 2nd Amendment case before the Supreme Court.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-kavanaugh-nra

    Then why the street demonstrations by FC? Why not direct that energy and time working with a law firm to put the Florida Statute before the Supreme Court. The demonstrations surely won’t get the Supreme Courts attention.
    U.S. Army (Ret) 1953-1977 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’
    — Patrick Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    Federal Supreme Court? You mean the Supreme Court of the United States of America

    There is presently just one 2nd Amendment case before the Supreme Court.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-kavanaugh-nra

    Then why the street demonstrations by FC? Why not direct that energy and time working with a law firm to put the Florida Statute before the Supreme Court. The demonstrations surely won’t get the Supreme Courts attention.
    I said Federal Supreme Court to differentiate it from the Florida Supreme Court.

    One has to have "grounds" for a case to be considered for the Supreme Court of the United States.

    To have "grounds", one must be arrested and then the case go all the way through all the lower courts first. Then and only then will the Supreme Court of the United States even consider it.

    So, it takes more than just "working with a Florida Law Firm", someone must get arrested for violating the statute.
    "We the people, are the rightful masters of both the Congress, and the Courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who have perverted it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
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    I said Federal Supreme Court to differentiate it from the Florida Supreme Court.

    One has to have "grounds" for a case to be considered for the Supreme Court of the United States.

    To have "grounds", one must be arrested and then the case go all the way through all the lower courts first. Then and only then will the Supreme Court of the United States even consider it.

    So, it takes more than just "working with a Florida Law Firm", someone must get arrested for violating the statute.
    You are joking, right? I don’t believe an arrest is required, just the state law that violates a persons constitutional right is evidence enough. But as you say if an arrest is needed why was one of the thousands that have been arrested for open carrying not used by pro gun organizations?
    U.S. Army (Ret) 1953-1977 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’
    — Patrick Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    But as you say if an arrest is needed why was one of the thousands that have been arrested for open carrying not used by pro gun organizations?
    That's a good question for the NRA.

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    Scottie is correct . Somebody will have to be arrested under the law in question then run all the way through the courts to SCOTUS.
    The reason nobody has so far is likely the arrested person has plead down, didn't have the pockets to pay the legal fees to get it through the courts, nor approached a large 2 d amendment group to foot the bill.

    Likely with enough attention being brought to the existent ce of such a ridiculous law the same thing will occur in fla as tx and the legislature will simply change the law due to public pressure.
    Odd how most folks who say they support the Constitution as written ,,,,,,,,,,,,really don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    You are joking, right? I don’t believe an arrest is required, just the state law that violates a persons constitutional right is evidence enough. But as you say if an arrest is needed why was one of the thousands that have been arrested for open carrying not used by pro gun organizations?
    I actually used the wrong term, it is not "grounds" but "standing".

    But no, not joking at all.

    It will take someone with lots of money because it can take years and huge fees to lawyers to get a case to the Supreme Court.

    And, there are not too many lawyers that can do it pro bono.

    And, most do not want the felony rap and will take the plea bargain just to see the case go away.
    "We the people, are the rightful masters of both the Congress, and the Courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who have perverted it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

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    Odd, Florida Carry took the open carry issue before the Florida Supreme Court and failed to get the Florida Law overturned. The loss at the state level opened the door to the U.S. Supreme Court, but to my knowledge this has not been done.
    Appears members of the forum approve the FC demonstrations, but again my question is: What do the forum members and Florida Carry expect to accomplish by their public demonstrations? It is quite evident that they did not garner the support of the local police departments, FDOT, nor the support of the local residents. In fact they got bad press across the board.


    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supre...t/1851224.html
    Last edited by chuck; November 21st, 2019 at 07:04 PM.
    U.S. Army (Ret) 1953-1977 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’
    — Patrick Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    Odd, Florida Carry took the open carry issue before the Florida Supreme Court and failed to get the Florida Law overturned. The loss at the state level opened the door to the U.S. Supreme Court, but to my knowledge this has not been done.
    Appears members of the forum approve the FC demonstrations, but again my question is: What do the forum members and Florida Carry expect to accomplish by their public demonstrations? It is quite evident that they did not garner the support of the local police departments, FDOT, nor the support of the local residents. In fact they got bad press across the board.


    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supre...t/1851224.html
    JMO opinion they are trying to do the same thing open carry texas did successfully.
    OC TX garnered alot of bad press too and alot of Tx gun owners through them under the bus . But they persevered in spite of the nay sayers and won in the end.

    Courts are political machines. Simply because FSC ruled one way in the past does not mean they will again.

    And if the legislature passes a law oking OC, the court wont matter.
    Odd how most folks who say they support the Constitution as written ,,,,,,,,,,,,really don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    Odd, Florida Carry took the open carry issue before the Florida Supreme Court and failed to get the Florida Law overturned. The loss at the state level opened the door to the U.S. Supreme Court, but to my knowledge this has not been done.
    Appears members of the forum approve the FC demonstrations, but again my question is: What do the forum members and Florida Carry expect to accomplish by their public demonstrations? It is quite evident that they did not garner the support of the local police departments, FDOT, nor the support of the local residents. In fact they got bad press across the board.


    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supre...t/1851224.html
    Odd, someone on a gun forum that one would assume was for gun rights would argue so much against them.

    What is that saying about freedom of speech?

    I may not support what you have to say, but I will fight for your right to say it.

    The same thing goes for gun rights.

    I hope your realize that rights are not dependent upon what some people want, they are for individuals. This means an individual's right to open carry is not dependent upon whether or not the majority wishes to allow him to.

    Gun rights are an individual right.
    "We the people, are the rightful masters of both the Congress, and the Courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who have perverted it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

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    Getting LE support for pro gun legislation is rare as diamonds in a child's sandbox.
    Odd how most folks who say they support the Constitution as written ,,,,,,,,,,,,really don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    You are joking, right? I don’t believe an arrest is required, just the state law that violates a persons constitutional right is evidence enough. But as you say if an arrest is needed why was one of the thousands that have been arrested for open carrying not used by pro gun organizations?
    Well, that's just it. The simplest and most straightforward method of having legitimate legal standing is to "force" a situation where one is challenging an unjust statute and where the State is "forced" to put up or shut up. IF they do "put up" (arrest and charge) folks for such ostensible violations, then of course there's clear documented proof of violation of their liberties. Or, at least they've now got standing to claim such a violation. Short of an arrest, the mere existence of a statue doesn't itself ensure someone's going to be seen as having legitimate legal standing to make such a claim.

    A statute regarding to when, where, how, in what manner, etc, one is going to be allowed to exercise one's liberty. Irrespective of the fact the person isn't causing harm, issuing a threat or in any way behaving as a criminal, and irrespective of the fact that nobody's injured or harmed in the least way by someone carrying here or there or during fishing, or whatever. (Other than the "harm" of feeling offended, of course.) Sort of like the lunacy of, say, saying one shall be criminalized for driving a motor vehicle while someone's smoking in the car, or while going on a vacation to XYZ spot ... as though doing those things somehow elevates the driving of a car to a criminal threat to others. It's ridiculous. But, as usual, since it's the RKBA they're infringing upon, most folks (from SCOTUS on down to John Q. Public) are good with it.
    Cardinal principle: Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck View Post
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    Odd, Florida Carry took the open carry issue before the Florida Supreme Court and failed to get the Florida Law overturned. The loss at the state level opened the door to the U.S. Supreme Court, but to my knowledge this has not been done.
    Appears members of the forum approve the FC demonstrations, but again my question is: What do the forum members and Florida Carry expect to accomplish by their public demonstrations? It is quite evident that they did not garner the support of the local police departments, FDOT, nor the support of the local residents. In fact they got bad press across the board.


    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supre...t/1851224.html
    Just so I understand what you're saying, IYO, Florida Gun owners should just sit in the corner, and piss themselves with fear, because they don't want to rock the boat for a 2A infringement? It's OK if you think that, but there are plenty of examples where people rocked the boat and accomplished (in the end) more that they would have had they not done it.

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